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heartbreaker

A general reply to the replies to my post below *g*



Re: patriotism and the abuse thereof

Yes. I am fully willing to acknowledge the fact that patriotism can be abused- in fact, I acknowledged this in the original post. But I've always felt that the self-interest vs. human interest dichotomy was a false one. I don't see how they cannot be welded.

In actuality, what jump started my thoughts along this line was a recent argument between soulonds9 and I about Londo. soulonds9 seems to be of the impression that Londo's final sacrifice "doesn't count" as a heroic action because it is largely Centauri-centered and not performed for the galaxy at large. And I don't think that's necessarily fair. The Third Principle of Sentient Life doesn't specify that all applicable actions be intergalactic in nature. In fact, it explicitly states that dying for one person- a loved one- counts just as much as dying for a larger cause.

Mind you, I wasn't attempting to excuse or defend Londo's actions during the Shadow War. (At least, I certainly hope I don't come across as a Centauri apologist, because that's not my intent at all.) But there is more to Londo than that- and that's why he's a magnificent and endlessly fascinating character.

Re: Cartagia's love affair with Londo

I remember JMS once said that one of the reasons Cartagia loves Londo so much is that Londo manages to stand up to him without ever giving him an in to seek reprisal. Londo's behavior is not the simple sycophancy displayed by the rest of the court. He talks back, but he does so in such a way that Cartagia never has an excuse to execute him. And somewhere in his fevered mind, Cartagia admires that.

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Londo's final sacrifice "doesn't count" as a heroic action because it is largely Centauri-centered

I can see the logic here, as Londo always wanted to do things for the Centauri Republic which implicily seemed to be somewhat selfish. However, it was still a sacrifice in this instance & therefore cannot be viewed as a selfish action. Just that once. ^_~

BTW: about B5 fandom being (a) Londo/G'Kar/Vir afficionados & then (b) "the rest"...absolutely! LOL

to save even one person...

...is to save a world, doesn't the Talmud say something like this? (I recall it from Schindler's List, so might misquote. I agree about Londo's sacrifice.

Incidentally, if soulonds9 wants to have a non-Centauri-directed self-sacrificial act by Londo - how about him saving G'Kar?*g*

And all this talk about Cartagia and Londo makes me realize that's another area uncovered by fanfic. Speaking of fanfic, I felt inspired today. Have a look at the answer to the Midnight... challenge.*g* It's not beta'd yet, but that is the nature of challenge fic.

Re: to save even one person...

doesn't the Talmud say something like this?

Yes, I believe it does.

how about him saving G'Kar?*g*

Indeed. *g* I shall mention that in our next conversation. Moreover, Londo had no reason to keep his bargain with G'Kar after Cartagia's assassination. Nonetheless, he did so at political cost to himself.

And all this talk about Cartagia and Londo makes me realize that's another area uncovered by fanfic.

Feel free to cover it. *g*

Speaking of fanfic, I felt inspired today. Have a look at the answer to the Midnight... challenge.*g*

As I said, I was deeply touched. But it occurs to me now that you might have the change the order around in the second scene. From my recollection, Londo throws the bottle yelling "Damn all of them!" after the despairing "By the time our ships got there... By the time our ships got there, everyone would be dead anyways." So Vir realizing that Londo is not mad at him should come after the realization about Londo's nephew.

you're right about the order of exclamations

...I just edited and fixed it. (I hope.)
I think basically I do agree with you, I was just trying to add another perspective...

And I find it hard to imagine anyone *not* appreciating the sacrifice Londo makes. I think it's possibly the hardest thing you ever see anyone do, in the whole series... Risking death is one thing, committing yourself to spending the rest of your life controlled by that... *thing* knowing that you won't be able to change your mind or even fight back is so much more. Londo truly becomes a hero, despite all the bad decisions he made.
Hmmm... look at it this way. Was G'Kar's sacrifice in the beginning of season 4 any less a sacrifice because he was doing it for Narn?