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Giles with Flowers- by shannon730

"I don't recall seeing 'Stab Gunn' on the agenda this morning!"

I have a sneaking suspicion this makes me a bad Wesley fan, but: Just as Forever had a greater impact on me than The Body, I liked Shells more than A Hole in the World. It's the aftermath that matters more to me than the prolonged moment of death itself.

Actually, allow me to further tarnish my fannish credentials: I can't help but wonder whether Fred's death still would've had a significant emotional impact on Wesley even if the writers hadn't rushed to make Wes/Fred a reality - if they had kept Wesley's feelings strictly unrequited. As it stands, I feel like the start of their relationship is a bit of a manipulation and rather unnecessary.

One thing's for sure: I need to acquire AtS for keeps so I can re-watch. I need to figure out what bothers me about Connor so I can give selenak her due one of these days. And I need to figure out why I love Wesley, yet am unable to really get on board the WESLEY/FRED OTP FOREVER!!!eleventy-one11! train. I need to figure these things out so I can write essays. Yes.


Once more, you're in the firm majority of fans. Most Wesley fans disliked/hated Wesley/Fred, though that was due to them being Wesley/Lilah 'shippers. There was Fred bashing on a spectacular level, though the Amy Acker bashing stopped after she stunned everyone with her peformance as Illyria.

Me? I think Wes/Fred wouldn't have worked out long-term wise for reasons that have nothing to do with Wes/Lilah (who also would have been doomed, for other reasons, even if they hadn't broken up) - he was putting her on this pedestal far too much. And yes, of course letting them get together just before Fred dies was manipulation, but then the pay off in the form of the Illyria relationship makes it work for me.

You're also in agreement with 100% of the fannish community about Shells being a better episode than A Hole in the World, including yours truly.

(Not about The Body and Forever, though, because though Forever accomplishes the impossible and delivers a worthy follow up to The Body, it has a sucky monster.*g*)

There have been a lot of essays written already about the entire matter, but that's not to say you shouldn't aquire AtS. *veg*
Once more, you're in the firm majority of fans.

I guess that just goes to show how much I know about the fandom. I am so isolated. *g*

Wes/Fred: I think you're right about Wesley's pedestal. Additionally, I just feel it was tacked on. It wasn't organic. That hasn't anything to do with Lilah. And the concept of Fred/Amy Acker bashing? Is bewildering to me. I feel like I'm looking at the tail of a giant fandom elephant over here. (Why do I always come late to these parties? she asks.)

There have been a lot of essays written already about the entire matter, but that's not to say you shouldn't aquire AtS. *veg*

Well, I'm 100% sure I wasn't the first to realize that Londo, G'Kar and Vir really are incredibly awesome- or that Stark is fascinating - but that didn't stop me from writing about them. Any other fannish texts shall be treated in a similar fashion. *eg*
I didn't have a problem with Wes/Fred becoming reality, so much, as the way it immediately ceased to be a reality. I thought they could have had two or three episodes, at least, in which they'd get used to the relationship and other people would come to terms with it, and we'd be lulled into thinking this was long-term, before WHAM! So to me the rushed bit was the end, not the beginning - as if they suddenly thought "Oh, we need to start Illyria next week, and we haven't got round to consummating Wes/Fred yet, better squeeze that in this week, then."
Perhaps I'm just dense, but I didn't see the evolution of Fred's feelings for Wesley. And yes, then, after things were "consummated," there was no time for the audience to get comfortable with the idea. So I really think it was rushed all the way through, beginning to end.

What worries me is that there's a line in Hole in the World that made me think the relationship hadn't been "consummated" when Fred died, which is just icky.
I like Shells better than AHitW, and I'm a huge Fred fan. I absolutely adore Illyria though, from the moment she first appeared. You're at my favorite part! Oh, you're going to LOVE the rest of the season!
So far, I am loving it. Amy Acker is awesome. To utterly change your performance mid-stream like that...
I happen to believe that Wes was putting up a front. That even if the Wes/Fred relationship hadn't begun to happen in canon her death would have hit him harder than a demon. Wes loved her even though he wasn't with her. He still loves her; that's why he continues to try and help Illyria.

You don't just turn off love for someone when you love them that much.
I agree. That's why I wonder whether consummating that relationship was strictly necessary.
OMG Wesley and Fred!! *cries*

The latter part of Season five actually made me like Connor. Finally. That was something new.